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Version management and future release issues
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Author Topic: Version management and future release issues  (Read 20435 times)
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Talisman
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« Reply #15 on: April 05, 2006, 06:45:06 AM »

They wouldn't be split up individually.  There would be one complete archive, and possibly some smaller archives grouped into similar types of modules.
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Nightborn
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« Reply #16 on: April 05, 2006, 07:15:13 AM »

My suggestion would be:

lotgd-1.x.x-installer (incorporates also a handful of modules like seth lovers or so, about 10)

lotgd-1.x.x-modulepack (all the core modules up to now)

so they *can't* be installed just with one shot... that's what we need.

Yes, for pro-admins this might be a drawback. But for n00bs it's necessary.
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Ironman
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« Reply #17 on: April 05, 2006, 07:27:14 AM »

And it won't even really be an inconvenience for the experienced admin, in my opinion.  What's a few extra unzip commands, really?

Might I suggest moving serversuspend somewhere where the noob can't find it? Cheesy
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Talisman
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« Reply #18 on: April 05, 2006, 07:54:16 AM »

Might I suggest moving serversuspend somewhere where the noob can't find it? Cheesy

...and domain_move and advertising... Shocked

We will be doing a review of all current core modules, and some which are server specific (ie addgems.php) will either be made more generic or dropped.  Specialized modules such as serversuspend, etc, will likely be relegated to a separate package.

We will also be adding better documentation for explaining what each module does, although the onus for understanding the implications of activating any module will always be on the individual admins.
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Nightborn
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« Reply #19 on: April 05, 2006, 10:37:11 AM »

We could use the description field of the module Wink which is being displayed a balloon tip if you hover over the module (as far as I know) =)
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SaucyWench
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« Reply #20 on: April 17, 2006, 07:28:44 PM »

A little bit more on splitting the optional modules off (and it's a sermon. Sorry in advance.)

Me personally, I am not creating any new modules which rely on other modules to function, as it necessitates release. I made that difficult decision recently, when staring, aghast, at the number of registered DragonPrime users (and thus the approximate number of coders/admins/interested potential ones). This many servers in the world isn't really conducive to uniqueness. There are probably something like 500 public and private servers out there all using the standard 1.0.+ install set of modules and all looking exactly the same.

I'm now getting complaints that my tourney servers look "just like all the others". Indeed, that had been the intent - so that anyone from any standard install can arrive and play instantly, understanding the dynamics and layout easily and concentrating on just the efficiency of play. But it's also a little hurtful when players even comment that "everyone's got felynes, everyone has petra, heidi, abigail, vernon, the kitchen, that klutz!" and imply that they are so well-known they are boring - when I wrote them all. It kinda makes me feel that I wasted my time in giving those to the world. The current donator levels on my server indicate that within a few tourneys it would not pay for itself anymore. And so I'm slowly modding my server not just to have new little shops from the cookie cutter mold. I'm adding major new sections as I have the time.

It has had the unfortunate consequence (probably unintended by JT and Eric) that to maintain compliance with the CCL I am forced to create one massive file full of linked functions, instead of several files that branch off each other. If it were multi-modules that had interdependencies then I would be required to release. And right now my feeling is that I no longer want to release my work. Despite all the hundreds of hours of work in released modules so far and given to the community, it has got me nowhere - GemDust is now in the red, and once its hosting expires in a couple of months, I won't be able to renew it unless donation picks up.

Probably a fair few of you now look down on me, hoarding my code and not sharing with the community. It may shed light though on *why* I want my Esoterra and Polareia Borealis modules pulled out of the default installation process. Having hundreds of mirror image servers out there is ruining the staying power of the most prolific module coder in the core release. Selfish? Definitely. But I will defend it as well, by saying, we do none of the servers of the game any justice when we encourage them all to look like the rest. In the next 100 of those identical servers, only one is likely to pay for its own hosting. The rest will all flouder and fail as the admins realise that you can't get donations on something that is found everywhere else and just as free.

A bare bones, "boring" server will quickly encourage admins to come looking here for content. I say that if they need to go looking to select that content themselves, their servers will become unique automatically.
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SaucyWench
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« Reply #21 on: April 17, 2006, 08:12:22 PM »

Well, here's my thought and why I don't really agree with Saucy's view:

I am currently uploading as many of the files from the old user system. Why do I think this is important? because my hope is that this will help make different servers MORE different.

No server is going to use all these modules.  In fact, no server will use more than 10% of these modules (at the most, I would anticipate).  Therefore, by making more and more modules available, you are actually encouraging different servers to develop.  And for proliferative authors to decide that they don't want to release their code anymore, the long term consequence is that, yes, every server will have the same modules.

Diversity is what will help the game grow and succeed.  Saucy's attitude will cause stagnation of creativity.  By looking through other people's modules, I have learned more than I thought possible.  Yes, Saucy, I have learned from backward engineering YOUR modules. Perhaps this is coming too late, but I want to say "thank you" for all the work you've done.  It has made me a better coder and more creative.  It saddens me that I won't be able to learn more by reading your future code.
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Ironman
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« Reply #22 on: April 17, 2006, 08:25:19 PM »

I don't think it's released modules that you need to worry about; it's modules that are in the core that make every server look the same. 

Maybe the number of modules offered in the core should be greatly reduced.  You can still offer core packs or something.  Maybe call them something cool like "Author Approved."
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SaucyWench
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« Reply #23 on: April 17, 2006, 11:23:57 PM »

Well yeah, I can see your point, DaveS. And I don't disagree. But I do think that your projected scenario is a loooong way off and requires all the contributors to do the same as I've pondered doing. And thank you for your kind words. It's nice to hear it from people occasionally and not feel that I've been forgotten =)

I didn't mention the handful of items that I've written that aren't included in the core. There are some, and they are released. Half a dozen or so. I won't say that I will never release again because I probably will. But what I release is likely to be cookie cutter stuff. Specials are fast to write and do provide some flavour to a server. Shops offering, say, a buff in some creative means, sure. I am more than happy to let simple things like that be hosted for anyone who wants them. (I find shops hard... most ideas I come up with have already been done by others.)

If the modules were removed from the main release it might change the general server makeup out there to the point that my feelings change in regards to my more involved work. But while players are telling me that my code is completely unoriginal, I feel pressed into doing something to change that.
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SaucyWench
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Talisman
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« Reply #24 on: April 17, 2006, 11:30:53 PM »

Maybe the number of modules offered in the core should be greatly reduced.  You can still offer core packs or something.

I may have mentioned this elsewhere already, and some people are already aware of this, but if not...

It has already been discussed and decided to significantly reduce the number of modules distributed in the standard installation, with most of the remaining modules packaged as an additional core content package.

The primary reasons for this are:

- Minimize installation problems, particularly on hosts with low memory allocation
- Clear up issues with admins activating modules such as serversuspend or domain_move without having the foggiest notion of what they're doing.
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Nightborn
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« Reply #25 on: April 18, 2006, 01:52:25 AM »

I agree to Talisman... and Saucy too.

Also thinking of not-releasing some modules I have thought I came to another conclusion for me for now, I thought... "they are not in the core, so nobody will get all of 'em easily..so well... nobody will click them together *like* this" and also "what a server makes unique are admins and programmers that invent something that *EXACTLY* fits to their server and to others it's useless without the entire structure"... "also another point is the template... as long as you have another visual style, your server is unique"

So I am glad none of my modules is core.

We should split them up and maybe not make a package but a section here... "Core approved modules" where they can READ a description BEFORE downloading and install them.
(somewhere you can hide a complete package for admins ... but only very hidden... maybe)

I programmed the punisher module as alignment mod because it perfectly fit to one of the servers I manage.
Also there is currently no clone as the entire theme would take time to develop and also configuring all the modules would be a mess.

So all you have to do is to increase the time somebody need to "copy" a server and well... most of the time it will work.

 Smiley
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SaucyWench
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« Reply #26 on: April 18, 2006, 02:47:53 AM »

I really like Nightborn's idea of a whole section where they each have a description. I would have no problem writing up descriptions for the modules that I know.

I would rather they were all individual downloads than a single pack. Or if that's not possible, even an Esoterra pack, a Quest pack, a PB pack and so on, would be better, so as not to encourage servers to install the lot.
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SaucyWench
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programgeek
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« Reply #27 on: April 23, 2007, 10:12:12 PM »

I think a problem is the whole CMS atmosphere. This place just reeks of pre-dot com bubble '99. That's because you people are like, 30 years old and can't get hip and cool with the web 2.0 g-g-generation.

SVN + trac + campfire is a pretty sweet combo. I'm not sure how conservative you guys are though.

There is a hook for SVN to post commits to a campfire, as seen here. from the trac you can see tickets (bugs, defects, feature requests)/commits/milestones/repository

Also, diffs look beautiful on trac.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2007, 10:14:20 PM by programgeek » Logged
Talisman
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« Reply #28 on: April 23, 2007, 10:18:14 PM »

Part of it is that the bulk of our users aren't quite that techno savvy  Tongue

If you're going to be hanging around here, I may talk to you (but not tonight) about how to go about setting up trac.  I had a look at it a while ago, and it kinda hurt my noggin a bit, but I'm not sure I've got the hosting resources that will permit me to do it just yet.

Without ruling out the possibility, Campfire might be a bit more than we can manage if the restrictions on the "free" account are less than what we wind up needing.
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Elessa
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« Reply #29 on: April 23, 2007, 10:20:13 PM »

I think a problem is the whole CMS atmosphere. This place just reeks of pre-dot com bubble '99. That's because you people are like, 30 years old and can't get hip and cool with the web 2.0 g-g-generation.

SVN + trac + campfire is a pretty sweet combo. I'm not sure how conservative you guys are though.


* Elessa snorts as she laughs

i think ye will find the main contributors range from approximately fourteen years old to twenty eight. 

there are a few of us older geezers here who must be too unhip to technology to have had any notion that any technology existed outside of 1999. 

* Elessa goes to take a shower to remove the reek of the pre-dot com bubble.

must get hip and cool with the web 2.0 g-g-generation.  Wink
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