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Author Topic: DragonPrime Team  (Read 25793 times)
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Sichae
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« Reply #75 on: April 13, 2008, 07:37:40 PM »

If we had a larger amount of competent php coders, we could move in cells to update parts of the code to oop, or just add/bugfix/rebalance things in certain areas along a week or month-long timeline. EX: One team of people to work on restructuring for loops to while loops and restructuring SQL queries and remove those that aren't necessary or replace them with the appropriate functions (the for to while should have probably already been done by now, but it is just an example). While that is going on, one team to rework on a new set of templates or updating the current "core" ones (those proficient in CSS and HTML structure, to make things look nice, rather than carbon copy). Then you have an R&D side who works on a way to more easily upload modules to a server, similar to what SMF uses, or have them work on OOP.

Leave out modules from the core releases would probably be big, as it reduces the size of the package and decreases the confusion that one has and the cookie-cutter effect that most servers have starting out. Leave it up to the module coders here to update and fix them, then release to the community, instead of reporting bug fixing. Overall, it should decrease the amount of, "Here is a bug, but I don't know how to fix it, so I will post in a brand new thread and no one will ever see it or make the fix." Well, one could hope.

PS: I am rushing, I gotta get to work.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2008, 07:39:47 PM by Sichae » Logged

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« Reply #76 on: April 14, 2008, 03:13:01 AM »

Thanks for your answer, Talisman.

I'd like to keep myself brief.

As I feared, you basically adressed and supported all my fears I had.

I might re-iterate myself, but ...
if you want to produce code of a good quality, you need to make a clear line. There is no clear line.
Many discussions what should and should not go into core are mostly growing older, are indecisive and tend to be forgotten.

Without someone, like you said, who dedicates himself to the *code* fully (you manage the forum well and associated aspects, and as you said, you are entrusted with releasing and more by Eric).
You said in a diplomatic way there will be no new Lead Coder after XChrisx ... I might say that many (including me) supported XChrisX at the time of choosing the DP Team members, an it turned out like it has. We must *not* throw the towel yet.
As you said nobody steps forward, why not *ask* dedicated people? Is it that hard to admit "we need help" to a person, I  think not.

My vote goes for kickme. To my knowledge (and the ignorance of 95% of all other DP members) kickme currently revises the commentary system. Which is a good thing.
As the level of proficiency goes, he is capable to handle the position and I think he also time AND dedication for doing the lead.
With all these criterias, I think he is currently the only one suited for that.
(*cough* negative: he uses a Mac ^^ *cough*)

@Contributor Credit
This issue would not be in if there were more members on the DP Team, because if I work for somebody, it's natural to have *the company's name* as brand Wink

Your SVN troubles are interesting.
Most points can be rooted out: no n00b and nobody with webspace only can execute a checkout via console.
Also, I wonder why many other projects provide dailys snapshots.
Why don't you just make (or use my old) shell script that zips the *entire repository* and give it to the users as download? Oo
It is not installable, you need to have your own svn to check the latest revision out?

Transparency: Nobody knows what's in there right now Oo
No changelog public if no SVN or whatsoever is there.
All get a big surprise the next time they install.

You are right: Documentations and whatnot do not appear out of thin air.
Though, what if I document a function, SAY the commentary... and then kickme says in casual talk: oh, I changed that 2 months ago in 1.2.0, it's completely different on the inside now ^^
I'd LMAO
Note that the dragonpedia would need sections for all versions... IF you really revise such things.

I'll adress DaveS question now after and including your answers.

Quote
1.  Do you feel the current coding and development is adequate?  Or do you think there are valid problems that this thread is addressing?
^^ I started it incidentally, and Talisman only stressed my concerns basically. There will be less good things happening. We are not evolving on the administrative scale. We are just DP Team -> DP Admins. There is no us, as we have no insight ^^

Quote
2.  If not, do you feel the community should consider "recruiting" a lead Development coder?
Yes, kickme has my vote. He basically IS already DP Team as he is the lead answerer to bugreports and all core issues.

Quote
3.  What are your thoughts about moving away from the "this is Eric's Vision" restrictions and open up the code with things like:  No level limits, Intregration of races... OOP??

^^ Well, it depends what we like to make: Erics Game with Improvements....
OR
A DP Game, based on Eric's Game ^^

Currently, and it will be like that, the first one is favored. So many things that should be addressed, won't be.
I hardly think that i.e. the level limiter will be removed ^^ for instance.

//Text Changes to a themed server//
A nice thing here, by the way: how do you change text in a module?
a) setting
b) module hooks in and changes it
c) translation tool

that's currently mixed up Wink)
chris was fond of b) -as translations slow down the game, and he only wanted it German-
Talisman is fond of c) to my knowledge

so the weapons, armor can now have complete new texts if you hook in and change them all ^^
whereas many other locations don't have that.

how to go forward?

^^ For an open source project who says it's "all can contribute, participate etc" it's a bad thing that you cannot get the source code WITHOUT revealing your email address and creating an account here. Hence the insane number of useless forum accounts, and this certainly does NOT help dragonprime versions of lotgd to spread widely ^^
As I am not really a computer/web n00b, I'd not register to get code I have only seen a first glance, there are many others out there, so why bother? Oo
And then I'd be a potentially missed good admin contributing later on when the "heat has caught me" ^^

Well, I believe I said all I wanted and am done here, thanks for your time and thanks for your reply Talisman.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2008, 03:39:32 AM by Nightborn » Logged
Elessa
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« Reply #77 on: April 14, 2008, 09:35:51 AM »


Without someone, like you said, who dedicates himself to the *code* fully (you manage the forum well and associated aspects, and as you said, you are entrusted with releasing and more by Eric).
You said in a diplomatic way there will be no new Lead Coder after XChrisx ... I might say that many (including me) supported XChrisX at the time of choosing the DP Team members, an it turned out like it has. We must *not* throw the towel yet.
As you said nobody steps forward, why not *ask* dedicated people? Is it that hard to admit "we need help" to a person, I  think not.


is this a position to which ye would like to be asked to fill?  ye are most experienced. do ye have the time to dedicate? are ye even interested?
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« Reply #78 on: April 14, 2008, 10:13:54 AM »

I think not.

In some, and essentially critical, aspects my opinion differs.

Also, I grew fond of being in charge of "my own thing" where decisions are made fast and if wrong can be reversed quickly.
The things I've done to +nb are different, so I can either do DP *or* +nb ... and putting +nb into DP core ... well, 50% or more would be unwanted or subject to massive discussions.

Kickme, though I don't know his actual understanding of the entire core, is better suited in terms of dedication to DP.
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DaveS
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« Reply #79 on: April 14, 2008, 10:54:27 AM »

Sorry NB... but I'm not buying your excuse for not being part of the DP Lead team.

Let's all have a raise of hands here for how many people knew there was going to be a mercenary addition to the latest core? Okay... I don't see too many hands here.  So what's the nice thing about it? Even if you don't like it, you can completely turn it off.

So for you to say "50% or more would be unwanted or subject to massive discussions."...  Well, I think one of the biggest points of this thread is that "unwanted" doesn't mean "DO NOT USE".  If the changes you've instituted are unwanted; then just add a setting and let's move on with it.  I hate to say it, but part of me feels like you've probably already done some inovative changes to the core and either: 1.  You don't want to share because you want to keep them yours from a proprietary basis OR 2. You don't want to share because you don't feel you'd receive enough credit for them.  I say: 1.  OH COME ON! PLEAAAASSE!!!! and 2. Well, what can we do to help???

You want to know what I've been waiting for?  Here it is:
1.  Lead Core Modifiers: Change the model.
NB and Kickme start as the new Lead members of Core modification.  And you know what? If someone proven decides they want to step up and join the team then let's welcome them aboard.  If Sichae wants to be a part of the official changes... who here is going to say he's not competent?  Welcome aboard!  If you've proven you know what you're doing, give them the abilities to work on it and give him the passwords to change the core.  After all, we're going to make the development process much more transparent! (see #2) Coders can start leaving their marks all over the core in the form of //change by kickme, idea by sixf00t or whatnot.  You open the dragon.php file and suddenly you see "holy cow... big changes by 3 people. Good."
2.  Complete documentation of ALL core changes from version to version with a thread that says "Here is a complete documentation of ALL core changes from version to version". (updated as changes are made)  You can subhead each change with who did it or who is working on things. Also, you can see "Oh hey, NB is working on fixing the village hook... since Kickme was going to make a change there he should run it by NB and work together on it.
3.  Open the download of the stable core to ANY user.  Eph had a problem with requiring registration for download... and I think the original releases of the core didn't require registration... maybe we need to go back to that model.  I mean, why NOT???
4.  Open the download of the developing core to any coder that is either registered OR someone with some proof of some abilities (I don't know... whatever it takes).  Let people see the core as it is in the process of development.  Why keep it under lock and key?  All these "But they'll come here and complain" arguments always seemed somewhat unsatisfactory.  Also, this would prevent the "Hey, I already fixed that" problem for active developers.
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Sichae
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« Reply #80 on: April 14, 2008, 11:04:08 AM »

I'd love to have anything other than playing video games from 7:37 AM - 2:52 PM and looking at LOLcats. One of my main problems with programming was that I lost the love for it when people that were living with me at the time decided to farm out my name to other people and I began receiving requests for things, yet the party decided to put no effort forth in the means of content, nor a clear idea of what they want done. My main problem is that. Tell me that there is a bug to fix, I'll fix it. Tell me what your idea is and what you want out of it, I'll make it. Tell me that you want A done and leave me to it, it isn't going to get done, because I have no motivation to do so. I'm not going to build someone's house for them, just so that they can take the credit and go live in it. Let's build it together, so I can come over and have a drink, watch a movie, maybe even crash on the couch.

I'll address the contribution idea: If it is to remain the "Dragonprime Edition," no specific author credits are needed. Knowing that one is part of the team should be sufficient. If need be, do a credits page, similar to the last Author column of the List Modules page or movie credits, but in an un-editable and un-removable page, such as on DP itself. In the code itself, add in comments to indicate who did what. Should be good enough.

Am I allowed to say I'm not competent? Tongue
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« Reply #81 on: April 14, 2008, 02:21:24 PM »

Dave,

that's more a reason than an excuse.

The thing about "turning off" ... well, there ARE things in the core you can't turn off, and if you are suprised by them, what's the point of it?
In general, I'd like to have a complete list of what (in plain English) got added and what removed.
That's commonsense. I won't install something and then say "oh hey, my module is not working right..." or "erm, I think that's wrong here, why is that setting gone?" or "what is that setting for? I have no clue"...

"Just add a setting" ... errr
if the commentary goes OOP, I can't make a setting to have it "old style" because some module hooks in and does a nasty hack i.e.
You can't have a setting for everything, EXCEPT if you declare the current structure holy and don't touch anything critical... I invented the attribute system, and made it NOT a setting... because then I'd have to write 2 battles, one with and one without the attribute values used... then I'd had to have 2 files to distribute the DK points...one WITH attributes, the other without...
you see where this is leading?

3rd Paragraph:
1. there is no proprietary basis. you can download my entire distribution free as it should be. I merely ask, if code is used from it that was *not* in 1.1.1 DP edition, my name is credited. That's perfectly legal.
2. See 1) ... I spent *one year* enhancing +nb, really Dave, sorry, but I won't just tilt my head, say "Glad to be of service" and forget about me doing all the work and say "Thanks DP for letting me provide hard work to make YOU look like the great inventors".... footnotes (as you have seen) are okay for a moment and get forgotten pretty soon.

4th Paragraph:
1. Kickme suffices. I can think of Sichae too, though as Sichae said: there should be *one* coordinating the effort. That should be kickme. Else kickme can assign more people to different tasks. Also I see comments in the files *who did what* as fair for everybody. It also helps "hey, why did you do that?" to get a quick answer
2. Why in a thread? a CHANGELOG.txt openly available are enough.
3. Agreed, I am against registering to get opensource code.
4. I'd even give it to all that ask for. It is not OUR concern if they use a software that has "UNSTABLE! TESTING!" written all over it. Many opensource projects give access to their testing software to let interested people trace bugs or do performancing or give good suggestions. We lack all that here.

@Sichae
I have not kept you busy ^^ sorry. Currently I need about the same time to explain a module idea or system in my head as for coding. So I skip explaining and code myself. Oo

Again: Transparency is the key in opensource projects, not secrecy, no parenting users. If they are not treated equal on information, they don't feel equal and are unlikely to contribute.

I worked hard to have a decent overview on how the code works.
But I won't need it to reshape the commentary, or do a new output class like I did. That's something one with good overview would explain to me in 10 minutes, and then send me to work =)
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« Reply #82 on: April 16, 2008, 07:54:20 PM »

just to chime in for the sake of chiming in, and to be a little defensive:  I'm still running 1.1.1 beta, so that is why I do not have a dragonprime paypal button yet, so don't judge me!
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« Reply #83 on: October 27, 2016, 05:22:00 AM »

um, the "dragonprime team" is everyone on this site.  it is not supposed to be an individual.

No it's not, I remember distinctly asking for specifics on some (I was assured) very bad security exploits, that were not released because someone thought it would be worse if people knew about them (and could therefore patch their installs), than to tell everyone to upgrade to the next release.  I can see the need to cater to ignorant administrators, fine, but don't mess with my install in the meantime when I can easily patch whatever the problem is myself, except no one at the time would tell me what the problem was, just that it existed, and that has had a deep impression on my opinions since.

So when we get a little more transparency and an SVN/CVS (along with some kind of code review process), then I think you'll see more contributors.


Rereading through this was actually entertaining to see the tight-knit community having struggles, even in 2008. But to help probably kickstart some help: you can change the names of inputs in preferences to set your own preference.

Steps to replicate: Go to preferences, select a module input or a dropdown to change (let's use additionalbioinfo module as an example), use DevTools to change `additionalbioinfo___additionalbioinfo` to any `modulename___preferencename` as you wish. A core module, bioalt.php, requires no checks on the character's superuser to see IP information. So if you want, you can change the name of an input to `bioalt___viewallowed` and set it to 1 (true) and save. This will give you permission to view anyone's IP, and other characters. I have been exploiting this for a while, and only a couple servers have the fix in place.
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« Reply #84 on: October 30, 2016, 02:58:10 PM »

Definitely seems like this discussion validates the need for a finer-grained module system than a monolithic "core," one where people can contribute freely or choose to withhold or even sell access to modules, thereby retaining whatever sense of ownership they want to. @eliwood and I have built such a system, though little else of the code Smiley
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« Reply #85 on: October 31, 2016, 03:27:34 PM »

I don't see much wrong with a monolithic core, Linux i.e. being a good example Wink

You can also compile your own core there, as you can here, almost.

Your overhaul sounds good though, it's not bad to have a port to a different system - eliwood also release info on anpera.net if I recall correctly.

If you go on ahead like this, you should have already done a few UML diagrams etc, because you need all abstract stuff done in your head if you want to implement correctly.
That's something I am interested in Cheesy
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« Reply #86 on: November 01, 2016, 06:16:46 AM »

Your overhaul sounds good though, it's not bad to have a port to a different system - eliwood also release info on anpera.net if I recall correctly.

Yes I do. It's important to me to bring back these two diverged communities (or what's left of it).
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« Reply #87 on: November 11, 2016, 06:53:26 AM »

@Nightborn: never found much use in UML diagrams, at least over and above a simple API shell that I could write in code and share w/ coworkers.

I did spend some time on some documentation (https://github.com/lotgd/core/wiki/), including an architecture overview (https://github.com/lotgd/core/wiki/Architecture-Overview). Would love your feedback on how readable it is.
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