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Author Topic: A LOTGD fork..  (Read 13063 times)
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iamsure
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« on: April 01, 2005, 09:49:44 AM »

Hello,

I'm here to announce the creation of a fork of LOTGD 0.97.

The Dragon Saga, a GPL-licensed continuation of the 0.97 LOTGD code, will be developed publicly at http://developer.berlios.de/projects/dragonsaga/ .

Our design goals include:
- migrating the game to a more secure login system
- using adodb for all db calls
- using smarty for templating all game files
- more extensive logging of player actions
- more robust admin panel
- more robust plugin/mod support
- larger game world, with more backstory
- and more

We have tremendous respect for the work done on LOTGD, and understand the desire and intentions of the developers to move to a different license. However, for a variety of reasons, we prefer the GPL and will be publishing our fork under that license. We will not be using any 0.98 code for the development of The Dragon Saga.

We will be opening forums discussing its development later this week.

This isn't an April Fools Joke, and we sincerely look forward to working with the community!
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sixf00t4
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« Reply #1 on: April 01, 2005, 10:09:44 AM »

first off, spam.  tal, can we delete this?

second off, talking about raining the parade. 1.0.0 was just released today.

third off, 9.7 is old and busted, 1.0.0 is the new hawtness.

fourth off, you don't even have the guts to register.

fifth off, if you hadn't said it wasn't an april fools joke, i would have laughed.  but now i am just left to laugh at you.

sixth off, what do you think you are doing?  "picking up where they left off" or something???  they worked hard on that code and fixed it, and now you are going to reinvent the wheel?

seventh off, die.

eighth off, you are the exact reason a switch in license was needed.
« Last Edit: April 01, 2005, 10:11:59 AM by sixf00t4 » Logged

iamsure
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« Reply #2 on: April 01, 2005, 10:15:47 AM »

first off, spam.  tal, can we delete this?
How is it spam? Its a legitimate announcement of continuing the lotgd code.. ?

second off, talking about raining the parade. 1.0.0 was just released today.
Congrats! I didnt see the announcement, very cool.. doesn't change my project goals, or the desire of some to continue developing in a GPL fork.

fourth off, you don't even have the guts to register.
I did register. It had nothing to do with guts, and everything to do with frustration at registering at a fifteenth forum that I visit daily now.. hehe.

fifth off, if you hadn't said it wasn't an april fools joke, i would have laughed.  but now i am just left to laugh at you.
I dont see the humor.

sixth off, what do you think you are doing?  "picking up where they left off" or something???  they worked hard on that code and fixed it, and now you are going to reinvent the wheel?
No - I'm continuing the development, from 0.97, under the GPL. Its a different license, a different approach, and there's always room for others.

I'm really not understanding the hostility here..
« Last Edit: April 01, 2005, 10:16:40 AM by iamsure » Logged
sixf00t4
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« Reply #3 on: April 01, 2005, 10:20:57 AM »

ok, perhaps i jumped to conclusions.  let's start over.  Have you brought this up to eric or jt?
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iamsure
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« Reply #4 on: April 01, 2005, 10:23:37 AM »

ok, perhaps i jumped to conclusions.  let's start over.  Have you brought this up to eric or jt?
No, admittedly I should have done that.

I'll go email now.. Smiley
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CortalUX
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« Reply #5 on: April 01, 2005, 10:26:29 AM »

- migrating the game to a more secure login system
This has been done in 1.0.
using adodb for all db calls
Easy to change your DB wrapper in 1.0.
using smarty for templating all game files
If you look, you can add your own {} thingys easily, and the templates are great.
more extensive logging of player actions
We've got more modules using debuglog already.
more robust admin panel
This has been done in 1.0.
more robust plugin/mod support
This has been done in 1.0.
larger game world, with more backstory
This has been done in 1.0.
And more.
With the new module system, you can do anything to LotGD.
« Last Edit: April 01, 2005, 10:27:04 AM by CortalUX » Logged
CortalUX
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« Reply #6 on: April 01, 2005, 10:27:32 AM »

Under the GNU GPL you could legally do this, however we've already done it.
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CortalUX
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« Reply #7 on: April 01, 2005, 10:34:11 AM »

I may be posting a lot of messages to this topic, but, considering the nature of the first post, I couldn't make this any spammier than it is.
Now, you may have good intentions, but with all the work everyone has done on this, how could you do anything but piss people off?
Even if anyone construes my next comment as whatever, I'm going to say it.
I'm going to be watching every release you make, every file you create. I'm going to stay within all legal boundaries, but if I see any 0.9.8 code, even if it's lazy developers copying it by accident, I will so *something* about it.
We've put in so much hard work, so many hours, even though I am quite new. We've done so much, and on our kinda partying day, you've just gone and as sixf00t4 says, rained on our parade.
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iamsure
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« Reply #8 on: April 01, 2005, 10:36:13 AM »

This forum's quoting system leaves much to be desired, so forgive my partial quote/non-quoting..

Responding to CortalUX, my answer to practically all your statements is that we plan to do things differently, and more extensively. To pick an example, the admin panel pales in comparison to what I've implemented in another game - which is part of my planned goals.. to use those successes in TDS.

I understand the desire to cheer on 1.0, and I have nothing but the warmest congratulations for its release. I honestly hadnt seen the announcement, and didnt intend to steal thunder from its release. We started the TDS project over a week ago, and since we got our project space up, figured it was better to announce it than to have someone stumble on it and have a thousand un-answered questions.

Our goals arent to 'reinvent the wheel' - we have a very different concept for the implementation of practically everything you listed, and I hope to show that in the months to come.

« Last Edit: April 01, 2005, 12:00:03 PM by iamsure » Logged
iamsure
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« Reply #9 on: April 01, 2005, 10:42:31 AM »

Now, you may have good intentions, but with all the work everyone has done on this, how could you do anything but piss people off?
I understand the feeling. My own game, "The Kabal Invasion" was also forked over a year ago, and at first, I too felt very hostile about it. Since then, however, I've learned that the open source process includes forking, and can in fact be very helpful to development of both forks.

While we can't share code from both sides, we can share concepts and I hope that both development teams will benefit.

Further, it wasn't simply an idle desire to "piss people off" - I have a mountain of pre-existing GPL'd code that is incompatible with the new license, that I want to reuse in TDS. The current developers changed the license of LOTGD, and that left me with no other recourse.

(Please understand that I totally agree with and understand their choice to change the license)

I'm going to be watching every release you make, every file you create. I'm going to stay within all legal boundaries, but if I see any 0.9.8 code, even if it's lazy developers copying it by accident, I will so *something* about it.
I will be the final arbiter of check-ins, and I have over 3 years experience in code check-ins. I welcome you to do so, and the development will be completely open - all changes and development will be done in the public SVN/CVS tree, so you'll be able to yell foul at the first moment you beleive there to be wrong-doing.

Please understand that this is in no way a statement that I intend or foresee any such violations happening. I am far more critical about licensing than most, and I assure you, I will take all appropriate measures to prevent that from happening.

We've put in so much hard work, so many hours, even though I am quite new. We've done so much, and on our kinda partying day, you've just gone and as sixf00t4 says, rained on our parade.
As I've said, my project was started before the announcement, I had no idea, and I sincerely regret the timing.
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Zanzaras
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« Reply #10 on: April 01, 2005, 11:24:06 AM »

Ok... maybe I'm just naive but I don't understand all the hostility towards this guy for wanting to take .9.7 off in a different direction (granted he should have talked to JT and Eric before posting this, as a courtesy). Now don't get me wrong, I really like LotGD... a LOT, but isn't he doing exactly what JT and Eric did with LoRD? Isn't that the joy of open source?

Isn't that what's happening here or am I woefully misunderstanding the way open source works?
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CortalUX
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« Reply #11 on: April 01, 2005, 11:29:53 AM »

Ok, I've thought this over and I hope you can forget my original hostility.
I won't go as far as my previous messages, and I am sorry for any hostility.
Ok, I hope your project works out.
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sixf00t4
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« Reply #12 on: April 01, 2005, 11:41:39 AM »

isn't he doing exactly what JT and Eric did with LoRD? Isn't that the joy of open source?

1. LotRD was not php/mysql based. eric actually put in the work and time himself from scratch to make it into a web-based system.  he didn't just take Seth Able's code and call it his own project.

2.  LotRD is not being developed. Eric wanted to see the game live on, so he did that.

3.  Eric did not knock on the doors of players and admins of LotRD saying "hey, i got this new thing i am doing, come look at me"  AKA spam.

4.  Eric added his own NEW features and ideas.  In the list above, and commented on by Cortal, it's already in 1.0.0
« Last Edit: April 01, 2005, 11:44:43 AM by sixf00t4 » Logged

iamsure
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« Reply #13 on: April 01, 2005, 11:56:20 AM »

3.  Eric did not knock on the doors of players and admins of LotRD saying "hey, i got this new thing i am doing, come look at me"  AKA spam.
I'm confused by your definition of spam here..

I'm posting about a development that relates to LOTGD, 0.97. Its in the right forum, its as topical as the other topics, and I posted it one time.

Please clarify your definition - I honestly dont mean to spam, and I thought this was the *exact* community that would be most interested in discussing it, and being aware of it.

4.  Eric added his own NEW features and ideas.  In the list above, and commented on by Cortal, it's already in 1.0.0
In discussions with the developers via email, it has already been made clear that there are substantial differences in features and ideas. I responded to Cortal's post, and many of the ideas are substantially different.

The discussions with Eric and JT are fairly friendly, and while I hesitate to speak for them, I'll simply say that I think sixf00t4's reaction is markedly different from the other reactions I've received.
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Zanzaras
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« Reply #14 on: April 01, 2005, 12:14:05 PM »

I guess what I'm trying to say is why should we as a community get worked up about a fork to .9.7? Version 1.0 is so much better than the older versions. Most of everyone's time has been sunk into 1.0 anyway. Besides imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.

All this is just my opinion and doesn't mean anything really. To me, it all boils down to one thing... how does Eric and JT feel about this. This is their baby, they're just sharing it with us. If they want to share an older version with someone else, that's fine by me. If they don't, then maybe Iamsure should start from scratch or try to work out an arrangement with them.
« Last Edit: April 01, 2005, 12:15:48 PM by Zanzaras » Logged

"Intelligence is like a river, the deeper it is the less noise it makes."
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