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Question: Please read the proposal below before voting!!
Yes - 8 (44.4%)
No - 9 (50%)
Yes, but at a different price - 1 (5.6%)
Total Voters: 8

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Author Topic: A possible can of worms  (Read 11111 times)
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Kendaer
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« on: January 28, 2005, 09:07:15 PM »

So I've been engaged in that most dangerous of activities recently, thinking.

So what I am thinking about, is the LotGD license, and in particular the private code exception.

It is obvious to me that there are good people in the community who contribute to the game, and contribute back to the game as much or more than they get from it. It is also obvious to me that there are other people who exist solely to mooch off of the work of others.

Therefore I'm considering the following (and I still need to talk this over with Eric so this is just my noodling that I want feedback on -- therefore don't take this as a 'gonna happen' or anything like that).

I am considering removing completely the exemption for private modules from the stock LotGD license, and instead offering a way to register the game for a fee (which would be split between myself and Eric).  The cost of registration would probably be something like $50-$100 dollars and would be a one-time fee..   Registering would get you two things..  Priority listing in the Logdnet page listing (ie, all registered games would list above all unregistered games) and second, it would confer the right to have private modules (basically we'd relicense the game under the current more permissive license to you, but if you distributed the source further it would have to be under the base CC2.0 license (sans exemption))

Because Eric and I are the primary authors, we could do that relicensing.  The question I have for you folks, is, would you consider this a reasonble thing?

Please note that your input (both comments, and collective via the poll votes) will be considered in any final decision, but it certainly isn't binding on myself and Eric.

Thanks for reading.
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Zach
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« Reply #1 on: January 28, 2005, 09:31:02 PM »

I think it's a great idea. It would allow for more variety between different servers, and give those who create many new modules to improve their game the ability to have one of a kind servers. I can see this coming a problem if it deters people from registering at all, or if those with private modules become overly stingy and try to abuse the privilage.
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Kendaer
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« Reply #2 on: January 29, 2005, 02:07:48 AM »

I think it's a great idea. It would allow for more variety between different servers, and give those who create many new modules to improve their game the ability to have one of a kind servers. I can see this coming a problem if it deters people from registering at all, or if those with private modules become overly stingy and try to abuse the privilage.

Actually that's the state we are in now zach.. Right *now* the current license allows modules which, as long as they are *completely* self-containted, to remain private, and there are people abusing this.   What this change would do is require you to contribute to the community either with code, OR with money to myself and Eric.
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robert
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« Reply #3 on: January 29, 2005, 02:43:19 AM »

I also agree that this is good route to take. My only question would be: why are you selling yourself so short? The average player donation is $25. - so why sell a site license so cheap? Is your game not worth a decent price for license? I'm not saying go overboard, but somewhere between $500. - 2000. would be appropriate for 1 site license.
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Turock
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« Reply #4 on: January 29, 2005, 07:58:18 AM »

I also like the idea that Kendaer has proposed however, my donations are in no way near an average of $25!  I'm lucky to see maybe $50 in a month!  A license fee of $500 - $2000 would be too steep for me and most likely for all but the largest of servers.  I'm all for the idea, but please keep the reg fees resonable.  Most of us do this as a hobby, not as a source of income. Smiley
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sntjohnny
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« Reply #5 on: January 29, 2005, 08:12:36 AM »

Holy smokes.  $25 for an average donation?

Look, I truly appreciate the time and effort you folks put into this.   And you certainly have the right to do with it whatever you want.  You may end up shooting yourself in the foot, though.  You might get a good cash infusion from a hefty number of folks who are already enthralled with the product, but you may effectively eliminate any significant cash in the future.

Just speaking as a newcomer who is out here without much php experience who has been extremely pleased with my experience thus far, here.

If there would have been any kind of charge, even $5, I wouldn't have even TRIED the game.  One of the things that brought me here was the open license.  Even though I have minor quibbles with the license for 9.8, in general I don't have any real objections, and I like that I have something that I can configure for my needs and my unique population of players.  To pay $100 for that right?  maybe, now that I've experienced it- but I wouldn't have experienced it if I thought I would have to pay $100 down the road.

$500?  Holy smokes.  I can't wait until I'm getting 25 dollar donations from my player base, but as I haven't yet receieved even 1 I don't hold out much hope.   That would be the end of my association with this fine site and this fine game.

I would have to say that the odds are really good that there are lots of folks like me out there.  They are here because they want to run a server, not just play on one.  That means that they have their own vision in mind.  Hey, I could be wrong.

I also appreciate the notion that you would like some reciprocation.  If someone creates a mod, you'd like access to it.   Or money.  Or both.  Smiley  

I don't have much money and I'm just learning to code.  Throw up too high a barrier, and you'll never get money and you'll never get any code, cuz I'd just be moving on.

$500-$2,000.

Sheesh.  That puts new meaning to "I'm not saying go overboard"
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XChrisX
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« Reply #6 on: January 29, 2005, 08:19:49 AM »

If there would have been any kind of charge, even $5, I wouldn't have even TRIED the game.  One of the things that brought me here was the open license.  Even though I have minor quibbles with the license for 9.8, in general I don't have any real objections, and I like that I have something that I can configure for my needs and my unique population of players.  To pay $100 for that right?  maybe, now that I've experienced it- but I wouldn't have experienced it if I thought I would have to pay $100 down the road.

Don't get this wrong: As far as I have understood, you will be able to use this software free of charge anyways, but Kendaer & MightyE will not allow you to use this software (and do the appropriate things to prevent youfrom further usaing it) if you do not give acces to code you have written.

If you wanted to keep your additional code completely secret, then you would have to "register" the software.

I think $2000 is quite hard, for most of us, who see this as a hobby - a really expensive one, even without registration fee...

But in some ways I can understand both of you perfectly. I often thought "What would happen if every pleayer donated $1 (1) every month they played... WOW!"
But they don't... Sad
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sntjohnny
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« Reply #7 on: January 29, 2005, 08:32:33 AM »

My understanding was that they wanted that code to come back, not just accessible on the site.  For example, I created a file using the findgem file so that you could find 5 gems.  Very simple change, left credit in the file and everything.   The license says that I have to make this available if its requested, and I really have no problem doing so.   Do they REALLY want me to run back with Eric's file, with ++ replaced with +=5 and "you've found 5 gems" instead of "you've found a gem!"

Especially when the climate here is such that game designers don't like people getting gems too easily (see resistance to gem transfers, etc), I didn't really think my mod would be desired by anyone here, anyway.

If I had to pay 100 dollars for the right to make those two small changes that I did.... making it available upon request- absolutely.

And when I get good enough to make some real high quality mods, not only will I be happy to make them available here, I will be proud to do so.
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XChrisX
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« Reply #8 on: January 29, 2005, 09:26:48 AM »

I understand, that you are still free to modify the code as you see fit. But you have to make those changes available to everyone... By what means - I don't know.

If you do not want to makes those changes public you either must not use them or register the software.
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Booger
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« Reply #9 on: January 29, 2005, 09:34:25 AM »

If you modify published code (core or a third party module) you will have to be willing to release the changes in any case.

If you write your own private module, use it on your own server and not publish it to the community you would have to register.

Edit: Also remember that this is still just an idea. It may or may not happen, and no prices has been decided.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2005, 09:37:12 AM by Booger » Logged
Talisman
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« Reply #10 on: January 29, 2005, 09:42:06 AM »

I understand, that you are still free to modify the code as you see fit. But you have to make those changes available to everyone... By what means - I don't know.

If you do not want to makes those changes public you either must not use them or register the software.

You can make your changes public on your server by either promptly responding to requests for the code, or by enabling the 'View Source' option to permit people to read your source files.
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Dannic
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« Reply #11 on: January 29, 2005, 01:47:04 PM »

This would also be a way that some would quit contributing completely.

Personally, I think its a bad idea to charge a large ammount for something that was public before.  Especially if it is still non-commercial.
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Kendaer
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« Reply #12 on: January 29, 2005, 02:26:17 PM »

Ok.. to clarify.

There would *not* be a charge for the source code at all.  You could continue to do as you do now and set up servers, etc.

The only thing which would change under this proposal is if you could have *private* mods which you didn't release back to the community.   You'd still be completely fine to run the core code AND any publically released modules without doing *anything* else.  You'd even still be able to register your game with logdnet, it would just show up lower down then list than those who registered.  So again, you could run a stock game, or even a game with mods from dragonprime with NO CHANGE and NO PAYMENT.

Right now, there are (a very few) people who take the work that Eric and I do and don't contribute anything back.  This would force you to do one of two things.  1) either contribute your code back (which means you don't have to pay us anything!) or 2) Aquire a registration license from myself and Eric. (which we could then use the money for furthering logd, etc so they contribute to the community in a different way)

Also, I stress completely that this is *JUST* a thought for the time being, and isn't necessarily going to happen.
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Sichae
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« Reply #13 on: January 29, 2005, 02:26:49 PM »

This would also be a way that some would quit contributing completely.

This current system allows for that to happen. If one was paying attention in the last couple of weeks, we have had a number of those that have been retaining private code, and contributing none themselves.

As well, as Kendaer has just said, this is entirely optional. You can continue how things are now, and be on your merry way. It is just that if you wish to have private code, a registration with Eric and JT would be needed.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2005, 02:29:09 PM by Sichae » Logged

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Dannic
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« Reply #14 on: January 29, 2005, 02:45:43 PM »

The private code is allowed under the current license.  As long as it isnt' a modification of something that already exists under the CCL or part of the core release.  

Sure there are some who use this to an extreme and dont' contribute anything back.   But it is allowed under the current license.

Seems more like punishment of those who do actually contribute their work to the community than anything else to me.

If this happens, I will probably purchase a license but I would probably stop contributing.  No reason for me to provide something I had to pay for to those for free.

Just something to think about.  It does go both ways.

Btw,  are those who are abusing the rights at the top of the lorgd.net list anyway? Or are they a little bit lower in the food chain?  I would guess the later rather than the former.

I dunno, it is your code and you need to do what you think is right.  Just think that this is the wrong thing to do.  
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